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Thread: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

  1. #21

    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    I really dislike how convenient some characters are.. oh you freed 3500 prisoners?! damn we need a lot of weapons!! if only there was a weapon thief who's loyal to our cause standing right next to us..

    Also O-Tama's fruit is almost a plot device, it would be useless in basically any arc, but in this arc its very op.

    Anyway, as long the payoff is worth it, I don't mind. O-lin vs Queen was way too predictable, but the payoff was great.

  2. #22
    Division Commander Daz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    Quote Originally Posted by NamiRobinFrankyAce View Post
    I replied to that person on Reddit (and he downvoted me lol Thats why i hate Reddit) and i told him that O-Tama doesnt create slaves. You have to remember Oda loves the concept of animals fighting for dominance. Its similar to Luffy's Conqueror Haki when he tamed the animals in the forest where he trained for 2 years. Basically Tama with her power makes the animals feels like she is the "dominant animal" so the animals feels like its natural to submit to her. Its an 'animal thing'. You dont have to look at that with human standards. By the way of course Tama power in the hands of someone evil would be very dangerous. But she is a good person so she will use it just to defend herself or to lie on the phone like she did in the last chapter.
    Uh in this case the "animals" also happen to be fully sentient people with personal alignments and motivations...which Tama can instantly and completely override. Its absolutely brainwashing. High-ranking Beast pirates are flipped from their allegiance to Kaidou completely without their consent. Just because they have animal attributes now it doesn't mean they followed Kaidou because of his musky scent or the size of his horns or whatever.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    It's okay to enslave people just as long as you've dehumanized them first.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    Of course Tama's power will have a role, and it's convenient, but probably it's going to be relevant only after everything is settled and done and Kaido is defeated.
    Beasts pirates are fodder except few individuals and everything will come down to Luffy vs Kaido as usual.
    "I'm simply an accident. Why take it all so seriously?"

  5. #25

    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    I mean, this is a war. Is this Tama thing particularly worse than just killing the enemies or throwing them in jail?. It's not like she's gonna keep them as pets after the battle. Now, using them as soldiers (which seems pretty likely tbh) will feel pretty sketchy.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    Queen is a real blast. The more we see of him, the more i dig his personality.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    Uh in this case the "animals" also happen to be fully sentient people with personal alignments and motivations...which Tama can instantly and completely override. Its absolutely brainwashing. High-ranking Beast pirates are flipped from their allegiance to Kaidou completely without their consent. Just because they have animal attributes now it doesn't mean they followed Kaidou because of his musky scent or the size of his horns or whatever.
    So when Luffy tamed Carrot patting her head at the beginning of the Whole Cake arc do you think he enslaved her?

  8. #28

    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    Quote Originally Posted by NamiRobinFrankyAce View Post
    So when Luffy tamed Carrot patting her head at the beginning of the Whole Cake arc do you think he enslaved her?
    Silly comparison..

    Is she under his control after patting her? Would she betray/fight the minks if he asked her after the pat? If so, then yes..

  9. #29

    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    This is the same series where Caesar was held hostage from Punk Hazard all the way to WCI while giving little to no fucks about his well-being. Lol, Nami has literally called Zeus her slave. I'm not gonna lose sleep over this, acting as if Tama's powers is this big offense against the series' themes given the context.

    It's undeniably a power that could be abused or viewed in a sinister light, but honestly the only thing that would really give me pause is if its permanent, which I doubt it is.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    Atleast CC got to keep his thoughts.

    Unromantically stealing hearts is also a dickmove tho.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    Quote Originally Posted by mrsword View Post
    Silly comparison..

    Is she under his control after patting her? Would she betray/fight the minks if he asked her after the pat? If so, then yes..
    Silly reply.
    You keep talking about manipolation and betrayal,but animals dont work like that.
    Oda is clearly considering this power as an animal dynamic.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    Quote Originally Posted by NamiRobinFrankyAce View Post
    Silly reply.
    You keep talking about manipolation and betrayal,but animals dont work like that.
    Oh they don't? The minks sacrificed a lot to save Raizou.. they clearly have values they believe in.

    If the beast pirates used O-tama power on the minks and they gave Raizou up, what would you consider that?

  13. #33

    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    I'm willing to accept animal domination/submission as the explanation for Tama's power that maintains her innocent child status. We know the controlled characters' personality doesn't change - they still seem perfectly lucid and indistinguishable from their normal selves to people who knew them before (as Queen and Babanuki demonstrated) - so it's not a full, robotic brainwashing, just a tweaking of allegiances. It seems to be more of a strong power of suggestion than outright mind control. Plus, we have no idea how long it lasts or whether it can be undone yet.

    That said, I don't think there has to have a perfectly moral explanation. This can be, and still is, a bit of a shady thing to do. In-universe, I doubt Tama has thought through the full implications of what she's doing, and I think the adults around her would rather have the utility than the moral highground. And I don't think that's an issue! Oda keeps his protagonists at least vaguely heroic, but they're still a chaotic kind of good. Luffy's morality is relative and strongly favours protecting people he likes over the objective greater good (if such a thing exists). There have been some huge grey areas in Luffy's actions before (Impel Down, anyone?) and they've hardly ruined the manga's outward-facing innocence or Luffy as a protagonist, so I'm not going to clutch my pearls and say it's inappropriate or inconsistent that Luffy would use mind manipulation to get ahead.

  14. #34
    Division Commander Daz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    Quote Originally Posted by NamiRobinFrankyAce View Post
    Silly reply.
    You keep talking about manipolation and betrayal,but animals dont work like that.
    Oda is clearly considering this power as an animal dynamic.
    You seem really intent on treating these fully sentient, highly anthropomorphized characters with their own societies, cultures motivations and goals with the same ethical perspective as you would a pet Chihuahua

    Like, lets say Carrot suddenly murdered Dogstorm in his sleep. I doubt the other Minks would just shrug it off as long as she'd been patted on the head beforehand. "Oh well! We are animals after all!"

  15. #35

    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    You seem really intent on treating these fully sentient, highly anthropomorphized characters with their own societies, cultures motivations and goals with the same ethical perspective as you would a pet Chihuahua

    Like, lets say Carrot suddenly murdered Dogstorm in his sleep. I doubt the other Minks would just shrug it off as long as she'd been patted on the head beforehand. "Oh well! We are animals after all!"
    You are thinking too deep, these smile users are basically her humanoid digimon/pokemon.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    Her mental hold on them seems pretty strong. She made that horse lady go to her death against Kaido so it must be pretty deep. I guess operation human shield is the obvious outcome of this enslavement. Imagine being killed by your friends while you are forced to go against them by some brain parasite overwriting your own will. Reminds me of resident evil 7

  17. #37

    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    Smile users are humans for all I know. I don't understand how we can treat them as any random animal.

    I also don't get this weird rationalization that "animals act like this" when I've never read anything about animals being obedient to species stronger than them. Sure, preys fear predators, but they run away instead of being loyally subservient to them.

  18. #38
    Division Commander Daz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    At least Tamas manipulation-powers are slightly more humane than Doflamingos; with her only one side will experience the emotional trauma of being forced to fight your own comrades, instead of both sides! So its only at the Sugar level of moral repugnancy.

  19. #39

    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    Quote Originally Posted by Solid View Post
    You are thinking too deep, these smile users are basically her humanoid digimon/pokemon.
    Human pokemon sounds pretty horrible tho.

  20. #40
    Kick-Ass Finalis desa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 952: Hiyori and Kawamatsu

    If we are going to consider the minks as people it's bullshit to call the smiles animals. Even in the most exclusive wave of seeing humans we know they were born as humans. They ate shitty devil fruits. Franky isn't scrap metal because of his metal parts.

    So yes Tama enslaved people. Zoro killed some dudes before Luffy. The strawhat biggest fan is a mob boss fan of torture and Luffy unleashed some of the worst criminals of the world. Oda will gladly overlook morally compromised acts. It's not new.

    I do wonder how long the control last. Maybe Tama will make them defenders of the island.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    At least Tamas manipulation-powers are slightly more humane than Doflamingos; with her only one side will experience the emotional trauma of being forced to fight your own comrades, instead of both sides! So its only at the Sugar level of moral repugnancy.
    Doffly is more body control/pupettering.



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