Staff and forum feedback.

[Smudger]

Before I go into the obvious point of this thread I would like to thank all the staff, past and present over the years that have contributed so well towards making arlongpark the site it is today. From admins, mods, translators and everyone (including regular members) that take their time to make valuable contributions, thank you.



Now I've been about for a while now from the early days as a mere lurker and beyond, and throughout that time I've seen a lot of suggestions that benefit the needs of the community. But what we really lack is an overall feedback from the members about the staff themselves, and ways in which we would like to thank or ask for small changes in the way they manage day to day running of the site. Be it a larger presence, more or less toleration and everything between.

Saying this I don't want to see people coming in here being blunt and ruthless if they feel they have been preyed upon, or people demanding the staff slave/dedicate themselves to every single need. What i would like is for this thread to be a respectful place where we can openly and calmly express views on improving or merely thanking staff in regards to their role. After all we have a lot of staff that do masses of work for us that don't get a pat on the back or even have a chance to divulge the effort they have made towards keeping the cogs of this forum running so smoothly.

Now on the outside everything seems calm, but in reality a lot of things happen in the background in the sub communities that paint a completely different picture of an overall view of this place, with some good and bad points that can't be expressed without fear of being targeted. This also means a lot of issues people have can't be dealt with via pm between the two as its not on display to justify a fair judgement call being made.

Realistically we need an open place to voice these thoughts that can be seen by all to paint a clear picture of pros and cons currently held.

I think a tiny example of this would have been the recent staff changes, that while being a delicate subject was necessary, which was impossible to discuss on a one to one basis via pm or randomly posting on an unsuitable thread.

In short although this might be hard, it comes down to freedom of speech, something this forum needs. Or should I say a more democratic approach.
(while being respectful of course)

Sincerely Smudge.

[Kitsune Inferno]

Mad props, Smudge. In theory, this is an excellent thread with an excellent premise. Bringing issues and whatnot to the public's attention is great and helps establish voice within the forum. Sometimes, an idea that seems really bad in theory turns out great in practice. Having an open forum on the issue may bring a new perspective to the staff's attention that may not have crossed their minds before. Which is great.

However, I know one mod said on one occasion that running a forum is not a democracy, and for all intents and purposes it isn't. We don't elect mods, we don't take a vote over site changes, etc. Everything is staff-driven and as members, we don't necessarily have rights, only privileges. We're not bound to the goings-on of the forum, so that is why our voice as a whole is diminished. We don't HAVE to be members, we just are.

Even with that said, as a member, I can't help but agree. It's a great idea you've got, Smudge. I can see both sides of the coin, however. Even so, I'm really interested what others and staff have to say about it.

[cactusmomma]

Even though I'm only an IRC mod, I do agree with this idea. I hate having people stewing on something that's bothering them, such as someone bullying them or being a general ass. Sometimes person A sees something person B does not.. if they need to speak up, then let them do so. I know IRC is always open, as are our PM windows.. if no one responds, leave a message! We'll get on it!

[ChesCa]

This privilege is worth trying out, regardless of the results.

[Don Quichotte De Flamingo]

I don`t know what purpose this should have. Sure some things could be handled more transparent for regular members but most decisions are made after the staff discussed about it. Some think it`s good, some have a problem with a decision but afterall thats the reason why we have a staff, so that not each little decision has to be discussed for days before finally something is done. It would be nice to have here a place where some decisions could be explained by the staff before every second member sends a PM to various mods to get something explained they may think was unfair or something like that.

[Smudger]

Well this is it you see, as you all have pointed out. Sometimes it could just something you think needs to be out in the open and discussed, as pm isn't a viable or good enough option. Such as bannings, infractions or possible distrust/friction between staff and members. Now an option that would be public as well is irc, but the downside is it is only viewed by a handful of people, their isn't a record that could be reviewed, and you would have to have a time arranged between the two parties to make it work which all in all makes a tense situation even more impossible.

I think anything in regards to the examples i mentioned in the first post that needs to be discussed should have the option to be public, which will allow a fair and monitored system.


Also on another note I'd just like to thank and congratulate all the newest staff we've had join the ap ranks the past few months. I have already shown my happiness for them at the time, but would like to extend that further after seeing such and excellent performance by all.

[Badass SnoCone]

Well this is it you see, as you all have pointed out. Sometimes it could just something you think needs to be out in the open and discussed, as pm isn't a viable or good enough option. Such as bannings, infractions or possible distrust/friction between staff and members.

Hmm...interesting idea.

Not exactly sure how this will turn out in the end. But it is certainly interesting.

[Smudger]

You know it would also be nice to be able to find out which staff members monitor certain areas of the forum and if the need for another, or even less would be good. Take the creativity forum for an example, A place that most of the staff tend to avoid. (with the exception of Taboo and her awesome artwork)

This even more so after losing e1n, who took a lot of interest in that section.

Its one of the many things we can't ever truly discuss as a pm only falls down to one staff member which isn't the fairest route. Plus making threads for some of these issues is totally unnecessary, while some need more attention and a joint voice from the staff than found in the 'one liner questions thread'.

I just feel if one staff member makes a decision you think is unfair, the other staff won't get involved out of risking positions or causing some petty internal war that we all know won't happen. A joint perspective from a few people every now and then would put peoples problems, ideas and queries to rest far greater than the routes we have available so far.

Oh and while I'm here I do want to point out that it truly is awesome having staff members pop in and converse with the community on IRC. Not just to solve issues but to chat to on a one to one basis that reveals just how human and alike we all are. The best example I've seen is Terek, someone that's a real nice guy that has often been misunderstood, when in truth is a true gem.

Thanks for the feedback so far folks, much appreciated.

[Kitsune Inferno]

You know it would also be nice to be able to find out which staff members monitor certain areas of the forum and if the need for another, or even less would be good. Take the creativity forum for an example, A place that most of the staff tend to avoid. (with the exception of Taboo and her awesome artwork)

This even more so after losing e1n, who took a lot of interest in that section.

Well the sub-mod jurisdiction is listed on the bottom of every forum. And the creativity (at least the Writing section) forum is also frequented by quite a few mods, like Crossword and Gekko, to be fair. But yeah, I get what you mean. Just pointing that out.

[Smudger]

Well the sub-mod jurisdiction is listed on the bottom of every forum. And the creativity (at least the Writing section) forum is also frequented by quite a few mods, like Crossword and Gekko, to be fair. But yeah, I get what you mean. Just pointing that out.

*cough* cosplay *cough*

Well that I know to some extent, but look at all the admins that work tirelessly in the background that don't get any praise and haven't had a chance to reveal to the masses just how hard they try to keep the thousands of people here happy.

I wonder how many people here actually know what Cinder, jonas and roboblue do here? They do a lot but only a handful know it.

[Monkey King]

We need more democratic reforms or we'll have a revolution, 2011 should teach the tyrants of AP something.

[I survived the buster call]

Smudge, the general section is always available for everyone to post in, and that is about the perfect way to let people know who you are and what you do a bit better. Not sure we need a thread for the staff to make themselves known to us--there's an entire forum for that.

Using this thread to discuss things of concern--I'm not sure I understand precisely what you are asking for here. Staff try hard to be discrete when making sensitive decisions--which is of course more respectful of the people involved and their right to some privacy and dignity. They aren't going to come here and discuss those decisions in front of the main forum--that would not only not be right for the aforementioned reasons, but it would be far too unwieldy and cumbersome when trying to come to decisions. Are you asking them to explain their reasoning after the fact? Are you asking for the general membership to have more of a voice in the most general sense? How would that work exactly, somehow using this thread? What sorts of things do you envision people posting or posting about?

[Uncle Kenny]

Smudge, the general section is always available for everyone to post in, and that is about the perfect way to let people know who you are and what you do a bit better. Not sure we need a thread for the staff to make themselves known to us--there's an entire forum for that.

Using this thread to discuss things of concern--I'm not sure I understand precisely what you are asking for here. Staff try hard to be discrete when making sensitive decisions--which is of course more respectful of the people involved and their right to some privacy and dignity. They aren't going to come here and discuss those decisions in front of the main forum--that would not only not be right for the aforementioned reasons, but it would be far too unwieldy and cumbersome when trying to come to decisions. Are you asking them to explain their reasoning after the fact? Are you asking for the general membership to have more of a voice in the most general sense? How would that work exactly, somehow using this thread? What sorts of things do you envision people posting or posting about?

If I may add in my thoughts, I believe a major concern of this thread is simply that there's such a profound disconnect between the members and the staff. In essence, all we know is that the staff does things that change or alter stuff from time to time, and they're like this invisible presence doing said stuff without any tangible, human form.

Like, let me give an example. I don't even know what kind of people Satsuki or Takinawa or CCC (minus that one time he helped us) are even like. The exceptions being Gekko and eerie because I've talked to them more often. And all those people supposedly run our whole section. Now maybe it's hard to see it from our point of view because obviously you guys (the upper crust) get more opportunities to talk to each other but we (the common members) don't know shit.

All we know is that they're the invisible hands that moderate us and to call them up whenever we need invisible moderation to be done. You don't even get told who you were warned by or why. It's like the staff is a group of machines rather than a group of actual people, know what I mean?

Obviously I'm exaggerating, but at least half of the staff feels this way. The other half are naturally more social and it's not always fair to expect someone that's busy to constantly be socializing but the policies just create this disconnect that I feel shouldn't be there. So because that disconnect is there, it makes regular members more anxious and more objective because they're thinking that the forum is essentially run by them and not the invisible hand of the staff members.

[Don Quichotte De Flamingo]

Well, i don`t think it`s necessary that you have to know each staff member so that you feel kind of better. Afterall you always can talk to them in threads or via PM, but what does it bring you to know.."Hey, iam a 24year old guy loving OP and i live in Germany and i also moderate what you´re posting. Nice to meet you"...less being like a machine? Mhh, i can assure you they`re all decent people and when you want to talk to them...ehhm just do it and don`t think "OMG, THEY ARE LIKE UNTOUCHABLE!!"

[Dryish]

As a person who has been a moderator and who has discussed and thought about these particular things too many times elsewhere, I feel the need to post my opinion here. This issue is strongly controversial, and unless the staff states their "official" opinion it will sooner or later cause some quarrels - something I dislike. I don't have enough time to reason my own opinion well right now, so I'll return to it later, but I'll let you guys know I don't think this is a particularly good idea. If the kind of equality you talk about could be reached somehow, I'd be all for it and even trying to make it happen, but as long as there are people with different opinions and with unfriendly attitudes out there, it will never work.

As sad as it is, forums really aren't democracies and the level of freedom of speech to which we're used to rarely makes things go smooth online. The situation is ideal if the staff doesn't have to tell the users why they've decided to act like they do, but the majority still understands the reasons behind the act. Believe it or not, it's good for the community. I feel a bit heartless saying this, but I've seen freedom lead to the destruction of a strong, thriving community I so loved before. It mustn't happen again. If we start condoning more from the normal users, all kinds of whiners will do more damage than the guys who'd use the chance to thank the mods can cause good. We need a strong authority who has all the power. They just have to use it wisely.

And we already have the means to contact the staff if we so desire. Dropping a visitor message or sending a PM is a great way of communicating, and I'm sure that if the staff got more credit and sensible questions regarding their work that way, they'd be elated. We don't really have to make it public. If you have questions about the staff, just ask them.

[Uncle Kenny]

Well, i don`t think it`s necessary that you have to know each staff member so that you feel kind of better. Afterall you always can talk to them in threads or via PM, but what does it bring you to know.."Hey, iam a 24year old guy loving OP and i live in Germany and i also moderate what you´re posting. Nice to meet you"...less being like a machine? Mhh, i can assure you they`re all decent people and when you want to talk to them...ehhm just do it and don`t think "OMG, THEY ARE LIKE UNTOUCHABLE!!"

Yeah, because knowing that snippet is going to tell me exactly what kind of person they are.

And I'm guessing you missed the point of this thread because Smudge said several times already that sometimes, threads and PM's aren't enough. A lot of members don't do that stuff because they're either shy in general, intimidated, self-conscious, disgruntled or passive or whatever. What works for you or me doesn't work for everyone. And it's certainly not fair of you to come in fuming and being like, "Oh dur... Just tak to them!!!?!"

Because if it was that easy or the disconnect wasn't so apparent, this thread wouldn't even exist. Consider also that we just want to have the right to know who to be proud of. I was honestly pissed off that I didn't know jonas was such a contributing person to this site. Like, that isn't something that should be hidden... we all have the right to know how much he helps our asses out.

I'm sure he gets thanks in the shadows but a lot of people still think he doesn't do shit. Don't you find that the least bit fucked up?

As a person who has been a moderator and who has discussed and thought about these particular things too many times elsewhere, I feel the need to post my opinion here. This issue is strongly controversial, and unless the staff states their "official" opinion it will sooner or later cause some quarrels - something I dislike. I don't have enough time to reason my own opinion well right now, so I'll return to it later, but I'll let you guys know I don't think this is a particularly good idea. If the kind of equality you talk about could be reached somehow, I'd be all for it and even trying to make it happen, but as long as there are people with different opinions and with unfriendly attitudes out there, it will never work.

As sad as it is, forums really aren't democracies and the level of freedom of speech to which we're used to rarely makes things go smooth online. The situation is ideal if the staff doesn't have to tell the users why they've decided to act like they do, but the majority still understands the reasons behind the act. Believe it or not, it's good for the community. I feel a bit heartless saying this, but I've seen freedom lead to the destruction of a strong, thriving community I so loved before. It mustn't happen again. If we start condoning more from the normal users, all kinds of whiners will do more damage than the guys who'd use the chance to thank the mods can cause good. We need a strong authority who has all the power. They just have to use it wisely.

And we already have the means to contact the staff if we so desire. Dropping a visitor message or sending a PM is a great way of communicating, and I'm sure that if the staff got more credit and sensible questions regarding their work that way, they'd be elated. We don't really have to make it public.

Come at me.

Throwing away that you were a moderator once because I think it's irrelevant (I was an administrator on a thriving community myself), I actually do agree with you that not everyone should be given a voice. This is why I picked the third option. Basically, my stance is that people should be allowed to give feedback so long as they've earned it. Because a lot of people are stupid and are whiners.

But just because of that insignificant minority, I don't think the rest of the community should have to suffer for it. And I'm not exactly suggesting a democracy be put in place either but there are certain issues that I think the community has the right to input on. Namely, community-related social issues. I'm not suggesting we have a say in what they moderate, what they decide to change around here or take away or abolishing our right to... I don't know, bold letters or something. I don't care about all that technical stuff. Keep it to yourself. And in the case of extremely private matters... whatever, keep it to yourself too. That's shit that shouldn't be made public.

But whenever a community-related social issue arises and half the staff isn't social outside of their own little circles, how then is it fair for them to come to a decision without hearing our side? Like we wouldn't even be throwing it to a vote, it's just input. That's perspective gathering. That's something I would hope you would want to have whenever you're moderating a community. And I've noticed that, right on time, Hiroy actually has an issue that he would like to address.

But he hasn't been vocal about it nor have others because of fear or protecting positions or whatever. But even though he's talked about it in the shadows, I know what he's talking about. And I personally feel that yeah, this is a community-wide issue. The conduct of a lot of fucking members should be addressed here.

Beyond humanizing the staff, whenever the staff comes down and addresses a widespread community issue like this directly... that's when I'll feel that we're a true community.

[taboo]

[Dryish]

But just because of that insignificant minority, I don't think the rest of the community should have to suffer for it. And I'm not exactly suggesting a democracy be put in place either but there are certain issues that I think the community has the right to input on. Namely, community-related social issues. I'm not suggesting we have a say in what they moderate, what they decide to change around here or take away or abolishing our right to... I don't know, bold letters or something. I don't care about all that technical stuff. Keep it to yourself. And in the case of extremely private matters... whatever, keep it to yourself too. That's shit that shouldn't be made public.

But whenever a community-related social issue arises and half the staff isn't social outside of their own little circles, how then is it fair for them to come to a decision without hearing our side? Like we wouldn't even be throwing it to a vote, it's just input. That's perspective gathering. That's something I would hope you would want to have whenever you're moderating a community. And I've noticed that, right on time, Hiroy actually has an issue that he would like to address.

But he hasn't been vocal about it nor have others because of fear or protecting positions or whatever. But even though he's talked about it in the shadows, I know what he's talking about. And I personally feel that yeah, this is a community-wide issue. The conduct of a lot of fucking members should be addressed here.

Beyond humanizing the staff, whenever the staff comes down and addresses a widespread community issue like this directly... that's when I'll feel that we're a true community.

Yeah, I do agree with you here Kenny. What I'm against is giving the ordinary people here a way to treat the staff as their equals and question their decisions, because that would demolish the whole forum infrastructure in the long run. Even though some people might use it for good, it would change the atmosphere and people's attitude towards the staff, both of which I think are rather healthy as they are now. If we create a way for resilient idiots to spread their own views of how things are and how things should be handled, some will start doubting the staff's motives, and that'll breed unnecessary tension between the masses and the mods. If the members don't trust and respect the ones in charge, the community caves in. And that is what could happen if we created a place where moderators could interact with others and listen to their rambling.

Giving input, however, doesn't have anything at all to do with this scenario I'm so much afraid of. Of course we, the members, should be allowed to enlighten the staff about what's going on if they are to make a decision on some social issue. After all, we're the ones who are here to spend quality time talking with people. If some of us spot problems that need to be brought to the attention of the staff, we're supposed to do so. Or that's at least what I think. Letting the staff know about our opinions is important, and I'm quite sure our input is much appreciated at the other end too. As far as I know, nobody has ever forbidden that. People just don't know how much they're allowed to say - something that has quite a lot to do with common sense. The rule of thumb here is that as long as it is constructive and thought out, and doesn't offend anybody, everything can be said.

But what doesn't strike me as sensible is creating a place where we could give this input or share our information with the staff. We don't really need something like that. We have the means to contact them already. If somebody encounters something unpleasant, he or she is able to report it by using the report button or by messaging the staff. In a situation where action needs to be taken swiftly, we can always post and try to cool things down that way. Then there are cases like the one Hiroy's been talking about. I know nothing of it, sadly (it does interest me, but it's none of my business so I'll just shut up and pretend to lurk as always), but what I do know is that if Hiroy thinks something more visible should be done about this particular thing, he could always post a thread about it here and ask the staff to read it. That way, they would get the knowledge somebody wishes to convey to them, and people could publicly comment on the proposition as well. I've been wondering why people don't do this more often, as they clearly seem to have a myriad things to say every now and then. I don't see why that wasn't allowed.

That said, this thread is a tad pointless in my opinion. We are allowed to give feedback if we want to, aren't we? Good of people to start talking about this, though.

[taboo]

All seriousness, I've always felt like my Gmodhood is more of a janitorial one than one of leadership or politics. I'm always open to people telling me what they want.

[Dryish]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_XxI1hBl8el...+at+me+bro.jpg

And thus, everybody was too scared to continue talking. I'm running to the hills already.

Also, taboo, you're too quick. Now this looks like totally uncanny spam. ;_;